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Captain, Captain, oh my Captain...Who leads n who follows???

 
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Alucard
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Captain, Captain, oh my Captain...Who leads n who follows??? Reply with quote

The correct translation of "Wang-ui Namja" is actually "King's man (men)" rather than "King and the Clown".

So, who is the king and who is/are the man/men in Wang-ui Namja?

On the surface, obviously we all know that Yeonsan is the only King in the movie. Cheo-seon his advisor is his man. Gong-gil and Jang-saeng are his jesters, and so are also his men. The same go for his ministers and almost everyone else. Nothing wrong with this logic.

But, is he really the "King" or "Wang" as referenced in the title. And Gong-gil his "man"? Or does the "King" or "Wang" actually refer to someone else?????

I was recently in discussion with someone over the interpretation of "Wang-ui Namja" and what the good fellow said nearly caused me to fall off my seat and forced see to re-think on the movie. I'm pretty much still digesting on our discussion. Will try to expand on this when I can make more sense on this viewpoint...In the meantime, anyone care to express their opinion????

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Alucard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm back...if anyone care to know!!!

More on the meaning of king's man ("Wang" ui namja)...

Right from the start of watching this movie, nobody can deny the bonding relationship between Gong-gil and Jang-saeng. They complemented each other so fully. There were so many things to be read between the two characters, the emotive display between them was so genuine and so heart-wrenching that you find yourself shocking attached to them emotionally by the end of the story...that's how Alex Crawford put it in his BFI's review. The link is available at http://crawfordonfilm.blogspot.com/2006/10/times-bfi-50th-london-film-festival_30.html.

From Gong-gil’s point of view, it is very clear that Jang-saeng represented everything to him. Everything that Gong-gil does resolved around and centered on Jang-saeng, be it the decision to run away, to satire the king or the promise to be clowns again in their next lives. Even his proclamation that he has always wanted to see his "king" (Jang-saeng) on the tight-rope near the end of the movie. Based on these scenes alone, anyone would easy conclude that "Wang" refers to his Jang-Saeng and the king's man is no other than Gong-gil.

Yet, I say...the truth holds equally vice versa.

It has been said that Jang-saeng lives to provide and protect the younger more passive Gong-gil from the harshness of reality out of a sense of common destiny. As I see it, Jang-saeng is not only protecting Gong-gil as family or even lover but as a part of himself and what Gong-gil represented in his heart/mind. He is protecting his last patch of innocence, his source of happiness in a harsh life and an illusion (not sure if this is the right word to use) of the pureness that could be of his own heart as well as his ability to protect what he hold dearest. Jang-saeng may define his illusion of Gong-gil but concurrently, Gong-gil also fulfills all his expectation. Thus, he is willing to risk and lose his sights and even his life if it comes to that.

Without Jang-saeng, Gong-gil would never be who he is. Yet, without Gong-gil, there would also be no Jang-saeng that we know of.

If Gong-gil has not been so passively portrayed in the movie, given the hardship and helplessness that he has to tolerate throughout his life, his quiet explosive reactive nature coupled with his ability to memerise even the king, who is to say that he will not have turned out to be an ambitious man with an overwhelming chrismatic aura that men would follow him into battles and die for him.

Of course, the fact remains that the Gong-gil we know in K&C is not that ambitious person that he could have been, yet he still possesses the unique charm to blind Jang-saeng so he has only eyes for his Gong-gil. The same could be said for King Yeonsan as well as the many viewers and fans who are memerised by the illusion and portray of this Gong-gil.

So, who is to say that Gong-gil is not the king to his Jang-saeng. And if the director's original intention is to be taken, this story is all about Jang-saeng - his struggle to know himself, his tussle with life, against fate and society, his fight to protect what he believed in. Hence, how appropriate the title now read...the king's(Gong-gil) man...Wang (Gong-gil) ui namja...

And in reality, as it turns out (Surprising or Unexpectedly???), the path of "Wang" belongs to a 24 years-old pretty-boy (Lee Jun-ki) who continues to charm and captivate his "men" (or women") one year on.... Wink Laughing Wink Laughing Wink Laughing .

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dunnbother
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alucard, thanks for sharing... Razz

but didn't gong gil already say it very clearly who the king is. when he said to jang saeng "i've always wanted to see MY king. and now i have seen THEE, i see."

Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dunnbother wrote:
alucard, thanks for sharing... Razz

but didn't gong gil already say it very clearly who the king is. when he said to jang saeng "i've always wanted to see MY king. and now i have seen THEE, i see."

Wink


Hi dunnbother!

Gong-gil did declare that he wanted to see his king and he has seen his king thru' Jang-saeng. I'm not disputing this...Jang-saeng is the king in Gong-gil's heart. He is the freedom and free-spirit that he so desired.

But at the same time, I'm just saying that is it not true that Gong-gil is everything too to his Jang-saeng? See how Jang-saeng's reaction & emotion rides on everything that is connected to Gong-gil. In the same way, is he thus not "king" in Jang-saeng's eyes in that Jang-saeng will do everything and anything to protect and care for his Gong-gil.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi alucard Smile

i see what you mean now. so one will always be the king in the other's heart. yah i like that! good point. and somehow it makes sense too.

to me this is basically a love story between two persons, the politics and the actual king were just supporting elements. the story is really about this couple that through trials and errors and an intruding 3rd party to make them realised just how much they really needed and loved each other. that one cannot live without the other. so in each other's heart , the other one is king makes sense. Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dunnbother,

To me...K&C is not a love story but a story about personal struggle and self-realization with a romantic element. Wink I will explain more later on.

Now, I'm working on the viewpoint of the friend who prompted the take on Gong-gil being the King to both Jang-saeng & Yeonsan rather than the other way round.

There are 2 elements mentioned. I'm not in agreement with all the points but there is no harm in sharing and discussing. Hopefully, I can post it by tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi alucard Very Happy

yeah, give it your best shot...i'll be waiting.. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...here it is...translation of the thoughts by a Chinese online friend (shandian1972) that leads to this thread. It may not be 100% accurate but it's my best shot at translation. If I can get her consent on the original write-up, I will post it up as well.

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A Different Viewpoint on "King and the Clown" by shandian1972

There are 2 viewpoints that I have on “King and the Clown?:

The first is aimed at the director’s intent. It can be said that Lee Jun-ki (Gong-gil) became an overnight sensation with the release of the movie. For a supporting role to achieve this kind of sensation is almost impossible to imagine, and then to have your every move and action focused on must have been extremely difficult. For the audience, regardless of their age and the reason they step into the cinema - to watch Jang-saeng, Yeonsan, Nok-su, six / seven / eight or even Cheo-seon - there is no way that anyone can ignore the existence of Gong-gil and not to pay any attention to this character. The reason is clearly obvious, more than the goodness, beauty and innocence that Gong-gil personifies in the movie, the movie is unable to actually detach itself from the original stage play. In the original stage play “Yi?, Gong-gil is the absolute lead. In “Yi?, both Yeonsan and Gong-gil take the leads while Jang-saeng is only a supporting role. It is Gong-gil who threads the story along and the play concludes with his death.

In my opinion, the director attempts to narrate the story development in the movie through Jang-saeng’s angle is only his wishful thinking. It’s true that in the first half of the movie, the story is indeed told from Jang-saeng’s point of view. However, as the story develops, Jang-saeng seems to lose his grip on what’s happening and what’s to be expected. From the moment Gong-gil is summoned by the king, Jang-saeng is no longer in control of the situation and lacks the courage to understand and find out what is going on. In all matters, he seems to seek consensus from Gong-gil. From this point on, it is Gong-gil who dictates how the story goes.

Right from the start, the director has never really put any importance to the character Gong-gil. If not, given his disposition, he would not have risked using a newcomer for the role, even if he demands the newcomer to be talented in his performing skill. In the movie, his focus is only to present the goodness and beauty of Gong-gil and to use this as the essential element to fuse the contradictory conflict between Yeonsan and Jang-saeng.

While the movie takes on the narrative viewpoint of Jang-saeng and added a substantial portion of scenes on him, emphatically on the emotive interaction between Jang-saeng and Gong-gil, it has not actually reduced the part of Gong-gil. It is not that the director does not want to do so but rather it is not possible to do so. How would the story develop if the role of Gong-gil is reduced? On the other hand, if the role of Jang-saeng is reduced, the story can still go on. At the least, the most minimum of plot is still there.

Therefore, to me, the three characters – Gong-gil, Jang-saeng and Yeonsan are all leads. This is a movie about the bonding between men and it has deepened my understanding of human nature on the emotional and sentimental level.

From here, I would like to go on to expand on my second understanding of friendship and bond between men.

What kind of relationship does Gong-gil and Jang-saeng has? A question that is likely to evoke different answers depending on your understanding. For me, the strongest bond that surmounts love and even life and death is that between men which can be equated to ones’ belief. In this relationship, there is only loyalty and betrayal. There is no middle ground. To forsake this bond is as good as betrayal.

Jang-saeng and Gong-gil are street entertainers, belonging to the underclass, even inferior in status to the ordinary common people. Long-term living and performing together has enabled them to develop a harmonious tacit understanding to a high degree. In daily life, they have to endure endless hardship but in their plays, their constrained spirits are allowed to explore freely. Both Gong-gil and Jang-saeng are talented performers and the main leads in their theatrical troupe. They may be street entertainers, but they are unashamed of their status and they are happiest doing what they like – performing and entertaining. They are not envious of the luxurious palace life. All they want is only to sate their stomachs. Jang-saeng and Gong-gil are also absolutely unify in their spiritual pursue. They both like working as entertainers and to be able to freely perform is their highest pursue. Between them, Jang-saeng and Gong-gil are spiritually interdependence and mutually see each other as the life’s center of gravity to the other from their long-term performing relationship and immersing themselves in their plays. They are committed to each other in trust and loyalty. To people of their upbringing, this mutual tacit understanding is all that is needed to satisfy their spiritual needs.

After entering the palace, Jang-saeng and Gong-gil thought they can have a better life – not to worry anymore about basic necessities and yet be able to perform freely. But when Gong-gil is summoned by the king after their 2nd performance, suspicion and vacillation develops in Jang-saeng’s mind. More than the thought that the king will abuse Gong-gil, I believe he fears Gong-gil will choose the king (who has the stronger protective strength) over him. He is under-estimating the trust and loyalty between them because he is helpless against the king. When the troupe prepares to leave the palace, he is very obviously waiting for Gong-gil to come back. When Gong-gil asks him not to go, he displays an unusual violent fury. This is constrained rage in explosion as he is not prepared to let go of their mutual trust and loyalty in any way. Indistinctly, he feels he is about to lose Gong-gil, the center of gravity of his life. Something that Jang-saeng is not about nor able to accept. When the false allegation is brought against Gong-gil by Nok-su, he is willing to forsake everything to take the punishment for Gong-gil. Although the false allegation is a capital crime, Gong-gil may not necessarily die for it. However, if Jang-saeng admits to it, he will surely die and he knows it. Therefore, I think he is making his stand to Gong-gil. When Cheo-seon releases him, why did he not walk away to live another day? Simply because he is unable to let go…to let go of Gong-gil. To Gong-gil, his stand is very strong and clear – without you, I would rather die.

In the movie, Gong-gil is a youth of seventeen or eighteen. He must have been betrayed many times by the troupe leader. In order that his comrades do not go hungry, he has no choice but to sacrifice himself but in no way does it means he does so willingly – just look at the tears behind the mask. Seemingly a very submissive person, it is he who decisively takes the troupe leader down when he wanted to hurt Jang-saeng. The fact that both Gong-gil and Yeonsan do not have motherly care triggers Gong-gil to develop sympathy for the king. His innocence and goodness causes him to have an illusion of the king without realizing the intense need of the king for him. However, when he foresees Jang-saeng inevitable death, it is he who firmly slashs his own wrist, thus dealing a heavy blow to the king. Jang-saeng is ambitious and bravely rash while Gong-gil is more self-confident, firm and decisive in nature. He has never doubted Jang-saeng. This is the trait of a true king, a necessary quality of someone who leads. In my heart, Gong-gil is an absolute wiser. In conflicts, he does not hesitate with hesitiation. He solves problems calmly, decisively and very manly. In truth, all instrumental decisions are made by Gong-gil, even the king has no real say in the matters. Unfortunately, all these have been overshadowed by his soft and docile exterior and his age.

Going back to Yeonsan…in comparison, Yeonsan is a king and should have many followers by his side - people who are willing to follow him to death. Without such unquestionable loyalty, no king can accomplish anything otherwise. As a king, he must have the charisma and charm for people to willing put their lives at stake, to suffer and die for him. All these are part of an individual belief self-realization process. Unfortunately, Yeonsan takes his mother's death too much to heart. He is unable to find a balance point and thus causes his own disposition to be distorted. Yeonsan has only Cheon-san and Nok-su as two willing followers. Nok-su only wants to monopolize his love, substitutes for his mother and becomes the person whom he trusts. She is not a decisive factor to help him with any of his dominant. On the other hand, Cheon-san is only really loyal to the crown, regardless of who is the king. [Added 21-Jan-06] As a King, two followers are far from enough. So, not only is Yeonsan alone in his life but also in his rule. He is also politically unstable. He desperately needs followers and trust to consolidate his rule. Therefore, he and Cheo-seon try to adopt all methods to suppress and threaten his ministers to follow him. Unfortunately, his inability to control his mood betrayed him. Cheon-seon gave up on him and committed suicide while his ministers revolt against him.

Basically, Yeon-san lacks self-confidence. As a person, as a king, he is a failure. After avenging his mother’s death, he is unclear of his role and purpose as king as well as with his life. Even Gong-gil, the one person he believes who knows him best chooses to leave. Yeon-san is extremely lacking in his ways to win followers. He thought he is good to Gong-gil by conferring a high official post but Gong-gil has seem through him and rejects his appointment. Only then does he clearly recognize that he is alone and that his political changes are unsuccessful. As entertainers, Gong-gil and Jang-saeng can reach and share a mutual tacit understanding with each other. But this cannot be the case for a king. The position of a king itself demands only blind following but Yeonsan lacks the aggressiveness to do so. By being excessively intertwined to one matter, it has costed him to lose his ability to rule and his lack of long term political strategy has costed him the consolidation of his own rule.

As final conclusion, all I want to say is that both Jang-saeng and King Yeonsan are kings only in appearance. In actual fact, their eyes and hearts follow Gong-gil, Gong-gil may be delicate and passive in appearance, but it is he who has the firmest belief in his heart and it is this that both Jang-saeng and King Yeonsan wants to control or to follow.

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Last edited by Alucard on Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alucard
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.

BTW, I agree that there is this male-bonding element between Jang-saeng and Gong-gil but there is also something more...something with a little romance element added to it. Embarassed Embarassed Laughing Laughing Wink

In my view, Jang-seang has taken very strong stand about their relationship to Gong-gil right from the start. Gong-gil may have very firm belief of his feeling for Jang-saeng in his heart but I wouldn't say he is very expressive of them. The only open declaration by Gong-gil is at the end. Has he said something to assure Jang-saeng from the start, things could have been different.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi alucard, Very Happy

wow, your chinese is good in order for you to translate that into english. my chinese is lousy, real lousy, if not i'll be happy to log on to any chinese site to read up their viewpoints about this movie. with our asian roots, the chinese and the koreans are very similar in many ways, that we came from long lines of dynastic rules, fought against feudalism, caste system, oppression, servitude, you name it…so i believe the chinese will have a better understanding of this movie than anyone else. if there's any chance that you'd come into contact with this friend, could you please ask her what she think of the colour green on gong gil? i would be interested to know what her thoughts are.

from her long post, i can see that she doesn't think much of jang saeng too. lol.
i guess a majority of women finds it difficult to take a shine to the character of jang saeng. for me, i like him only for the way he loves gong gil, with such blind devotion, self-sacrificing and loyal.... self-sacrificing to the point of sacrificing himself to die for gong gil. what i didn't like about him is his blatant disrespect for authority. it's understandable for a poor commoner like him to loathe corrupted officials but did he really think that mocking the king in public would help matters? and he hardly knew the king at all. all he knew were gossips from those from the gambling den. could he really have been that naïve? and what i find hilarious was when he said "we mock the king. did you not hear? in front of a cunt, every man kneels…".... with such high-mindedness attitude while mocking the king, perhaps he was thinking that such debased position could never apply to himself at all.. no pun intended. if only he'd leave the king alone, he could have lived till 80 or more, no grandchildren to play with but at least he'd still have gong gil. Wink

another reason i guess women didn't like jang saeng was because he was a risk-taker. women want security and to them men who are those risk-taking sorts are like gamblers. jang saeng shouldn't have risked mocking the king. in today's term, we could accord jang saeng having great entrepreneurial skills but his ventures involve so much risks that even without much prediction, we know for sure his business will face bankruptcy even before it took off the ground… Rolling Eyes

in chinese, the word "king" could take on many meanings as in in english. according to the oxford dictionary, king can also mean a person, an animal or a thing that is thought to be the best or most important of a particular type…as like the king of comedy, or the lion is the king of the jungle. when your chinese friend said gong gil is king to both yeonsan and jang saeng, perhaps she meant that in these two men's hearts, gong gil comes first or the most important person in their lives. i wonder if that's what she meant. why not you reprint her chinese post here and let others have a look at it. my chinese is lousy but i am sure there will be others who could read it well.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dunnbother,

My chinese is passable only. Once I get shandian's consent, I will post her original thoughts up.

I will also check with her on her thoughts on the colour green on gong-gil and let you know.

I think what shandian meant when she says "gong gil is king to both yeonsan and jang saeng" is that gong-gil is firmer in his belief than both yeonsan and jang-saeng and thus it is this "kingly" virtue that they look up to, desire and want to control.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

The original chinese write-up by Shandian1972.
Please feel free to point out any error or oversight on my interpretation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

我对于王男的?解看法主?有两个方?:

一个是针对导演的。在王男放映?,准基大红了。一个?角红?这样,几乎是??想象的,几乎把所有的观众的目光集中到自己身上,也是?常?容易的。?管多大?数的人,去看的是长生?燕山?绿水?六七八或是处善,但所有人没办法无视孔?的存在,也没有办法?去注?他,这是什么原因,到了?得?看的地步(我觉得是这样,和我想法?一样的人当没看到?)。除了孔?在影片中表现的真善美以外,就是影片脱离?了原剧的关系,孔?在原剧中是?对的主角。在?剧尔中,王和孔?是主角,长生是?角,孔?在剧中贯穿始终,以孔?的死为结?。

在电影中,导演试图以长生的角度??述故事的?展,窃以为这是他一厢情愿。故事的??段的确是长生的角度,但??的?展是长生?知?也预料?到的。从孔?第一次?王开始,长生根本?知??生了什么事,也没有勇气去了解。但是他所有的事情,他都对孔?有交待。从这里开始,故事就?得???孔?走了。

一开始,导演是把孔?当?花瓶?的。?然以导演的性格,?会冒然起用新人,当然这个新人也?有演技。但?没有把孔?当???角色,电影中?注??表现孔?的美,让这?美?为王与长生之间的矛盾冲?的必??件。

以长生为主??述人,电影中加了长生的?,??表现了长生对孔?的情感。但?没有?少孔?的?,?是?想?,???,?了以?电影就说?清是怎么回事了。但是咱们细想一下,把长生的?删一下,这部电影还是能说清是怎么回事的,?是??最起?剧情是完整的。

所以在我的?解?说,孔?与长生和王都是主角。这是一部关于男人的情感的电影,使我加深了对人世间的情感与感情的?解。

从这里,就说到了我对王男的第二个认识,男人之间的情与义。

首先?谈孔?和长生之间是什么样的情感,这个问题个人有个解,?个人的?解都?尽相?。最牢固的感情产生于男人之间,超越爱情和生死,和信仰一样,?是忠诚就是背?和放弃,没有中庸之?,放弃说穿了也是背?的一?。

长生与孔?身份是??,属于贱民,连普通?百姓都?如的身份。他们两个在长期的演艺生活与日常生活中,达到了高度和?默契的程度。在日常生活中,虽然?常??苦中之苦,但在演?时,他们的精神压抑?得到了充分释放。孔?与长生属于??中的演技派,是??中的主?角色,??的?常默契。虽然是??,?并?因为??的低贱身份而感到?自在,对豪?的宫中生活也?羡慕,?求饱饭,对表演更是?在其中。长生和孔?在精神生活上的追求达到了高度统一。他们都喜欢当??,自由的表演是他们的最高追求。孔?与长生在精神生活上?对统一,沉浸在?中,在表演中,他们之间在精神上互相?赖,互为生活?心,长期的共?表演和生活使他们之间互相信任和忠诚。对他们的身份?说两人! 之间的互相追?与默契已?满足了他们的精神需求。

长生与孔?在进宫?,以为他们得到了美好的生活,衣食无忧,而且还?以自由的演?。但在演了贪官那场?,王第一次??孔??,在长生心里就产生了怀疑和动摇。我想他很怕孔?被王污辱,而且很怕孔?选择比他更强更具有?护力的王,他在低估和孔?之间的忠诚度,但他对王无能为力。在长生和??们准备出宫时,他很明显在等孔?回?,在孔??让他走时,他表现得?常暴怒,是压抑之?的暴?,他心里?具备放弃这?信任和忠诚的能力,他?约感觉到自己将?失去孔?,失去生活的?心,这对长生?说无法接?。所以在绿水诬陷孔?时,明明是死罪,他也?冲上?去替孔?顶罪,这是死罪,孔?认了?一定会死,但他认了?会死,长生心里是应该清楚这点的?。所以我认为他在?孔?表明一??度和心迹。在处善放他走时,他?走,放?生路?走是为什么?放?下?,放?下孔?。他对于孔?的?度已?表明,没有你我?愿死。

孔?在剧中是个??七八的少年,在以?的??中,被?主出?,他是?常无柰的。???,他们连?饭都很难。为了??的饭?,孔??惜牺牲自己,但这并?表明他是自愿的,?具??的泪光! 让人从心里?凉。看似逆?顺?的人,在?主想对长生下手时,?常果断地放倒 了他。孔?与王一样都没有?亲,这使孔?对王产生了?情之心。本身的善与美使他对王产生错觉,没有?觉王对他的需?的强烈。但是看到长生必死的他,很?决的用刀划过了手腕,给了王沉?的一击。长生是勇敢的莽撞的,有野心的。但孔?在?想上更自信??定?果断,他对长生从未产生过怀疑,这是被追?者(王者)必备的素质。孔?是我心中的智者,是有大智慧的人。在矛盾?级的时候,孔?从?没有过迟疑和犹豫,解决问题的手段?常冷?和果断,?常的男性化,而且真正的决定(决定事件的走?)都是孔??出的,连王也无?奈何。这一切在他的相貌和年龄的表相下被人弱化。

??说下燕山王。相对于长生和孔??说,象王这样的形?,身边必需?有追?者,有死士,没有效忠至死的人追?他,?能?事。王的形?必需?有足够的魅力?让人为他放弃生死和尊严,为他?死,为他?辱,这都是个人信仰的自我实现的一个过程。但是王对自己?亲的死耿耿于怀,找?到平衡点,导致他的性格?异。王?有楚善和绿水两个追?者。其中绿水?想独?他的爱情,?代他的?亲,?为他信任的人。对王的统治?起什么决定性作用。楚善则是?忠于王的人,而?管这个王是?,尽自己的责就好。但在王的?置,?有这两个人追?是远远?够的,所以王?管在精神还是在现实生活中都是?常孤独的,在政治上他的地?也?常?稳固。他迫切需?追?他的人,需?别人的信任,?巩固自己的领袖地?。所以他和忠于王的楚善采???手段,?镇压和??大臣追?自己,但他的?加控制的情绪显然出?了他,楚善放弃他自?了,大臣们最?彻底??他了。

王缺?自信,?人?王都?常失败。为?亲报仇?的王,对王的身份拎?清,明显没了生活目标,自认为心?最接近的孔????决离开。王对赢得别人的追?的手段?常缺?,自认为对孔??错,但没有料到被他利用完的孔?认清了他,?使?官也拒?,他也认清到自己的孤独和政改的??功。孔?和长生?为演技高超的??,精神上达到共鸣,心?上互相信赖就?以,但是王?一样,他本身这个?置是需?别人肓从的,但是他缺?霸气,对一件事的过分纠结掩盖了他的光芒,缺?长远的政治策略?巩固自己的统治。

?为最?的总结语,我想说,长生和燕山是表相的王,其实他们的心和眼都是??孔?的,孔?在柔弱?被动的表相下,有最?定的心,所以他是长生与燕山想?控制或追?的。


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Alucard
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dunnbother wrote:
if there's any chance that you'd come into contact with this friend, could you please ask her what she think of the colour green on gong gil? i would be interested to know what her thoughts are.


I have asked shandian and she did not feel that there was any particular significant on the color green on gong-gil. She feels that it was just suitable for the bamboo forest scene. I think may be someone who is a Korean might be in a better position to offer his/her insight.

dunnbother wrote:
what i didn't like about him is his blatant disrespect for authority. it's understandable for a poor commoner like him to loathe corrupted officials but did he really think that mocking the king in public would help matters? ....if only he'd leave the king alone, he could have lived till 80 or more, no grandchildren to play with but at least he'd still have gong gil. Wink

another reason i guess women didn't like jang saeng was because he was a risk-taker. women want security and to them men who are those risk-taking sorts are like gamblers. jang saeng shouldn't have risked mocking the king. in today's term, we could accord jang saeng having great entrepreneurial skills but his ventures involve so much risks that even without much prediction, we know for sure his business will face bankruptcy even before it took off the ground… Rolling Eyes


I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Jang-saeng blatant disrespect for authority. Furthermore, I think what Jang-saeng took was really a calculated risk...not to go hungry and who would be bothered with low-life jesters like them. I am sure he will get away with it if Cheon-seon hasn't been there at the right place at the right time to kick things in motion.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have asked shandian and she did not feel that there was any particular significant on the color green on gong-gil. She feels that it was just suitable for the bamboo forest scene. I think may be someone who is a Korean might be in a better position to offer his/her insight.

hi alucard Very Happy

what do you think of the colour green then?
not only i believe the king wanted to make gong gil his next concubine, first by conferring a rank on gong gil in preparation for having to assimilate him into the royal household, i was ever more convinced when cheo-seon the old eunuch set jang saeng free from jail and took him outside the palace, he said to jang saeng "forget gong gil". in otherword telling jang saeng that gong gil is to stay behind in the palace. what do you think?
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Alucard
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dunnbother wrote:
hi alucard Very Happy

what do you think of the colour green then?
not only i believe the king wanted to make gong gil his next concubine, first by conferring a rank on gong gil in preparation for having to assimilate him into the royal household, i was ever more convinced when cheo-seon the old eunuch set jang saeng free from jail and took him outside the palace, he said to jang saeng "forget gong gil". in otherword telling jang saeng that gong gil is to stay behind in the palace. what do you think?


Hi dunnbother!

The color green did not actually strike me as anything out of the ordinary in the story. I don't think the king has any "intention" to make gong-gil his concubine but definitely to make him stay by his side. If he really has the intention of making gong-gil part of his formal royal household, he would not be so furious when Jang-saeng, after being freed by Cheon-seon, mocked him about going after a boy. Wink Wink
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